- 来源:建筑创作 smarty:if $article.tag?>
- 关键字:伊东丰雄,建筑,日本 smarty:/if?>
- 发布时间:2014-04-11 10:46
伊东∶在建成后不久，我去参观筱原一男 的家，在那里第一次遇上多木浩二 先生，在多木先生的影响下我也有了与矶崎先生接近的机会。
ITO： Not long after its completion， I paid a visit to Mr. Kazuo Shinohara33’s home， where I met Mr. Koji Taki34 for the very first time. Thanks to Mr. Taki andMr. Shinohara， I had the opportunities to get closer to Mr. Isozaki.
FURUICHI： WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MR. SHINOHARA？
ITO： Well， the Osaka World Expo ’70 offered us a great opportunity to ponder upon many things in architecture， to think about Mr. Tange and theMetabolists’ works， to figure out what the future city visions were actually about and how those visions might by realized. The 1970s was the time wheneveryone was sort of introvertive. In such a setting， Mr. Shinohara’s attitude toward housing design was to create an ideal world in closed space， howeversmall the space might be. I think that was a quite outstanding attitude.
FURUICHI： In what way were you influenced by Mr. Shinohara， then？
ITO： In many ways. During that time， everyone started to design that type of introvertive houses， including Mr. Tadao Ando.
FURUICHI： The White U truly represents the style of that era.
ITO： The White U was designed under the influence of Mr. Shinohara， or you could say， under the influence of the writings of Mr. Isozaki. After I tried it out，I had another thought： “Is it O.K. to design a house that closes everything out of it？” And then， I began a new history of my design from there.
FURUICHI： Then there was the Silver Hut.
伊东∶是的。一直在想着如何能够让那个建筑展开来，这种反向思维便是从那里开始的。进入80 年代，日本的经济也逐渐恢复，迎来了从80 年代中期一直到所谓的泡沫经济的时期。我们也都开始思考诸如在那种时代下，能对社会更加开放的建筑之道的事情。筱原先生的建筑，是那种批评时代，或批评、批判社会的作品，虽然我们在70 年代也继承了这个性质，不过也开始对“消极看待社会的那种批评性究竟在建筑上作用如何”有了疑问。希望再次把它变成积极的，我想从大约80 年起应该是进入到了这样的时代。
Ito： That’s right. I had been thinking about how to unfold the building， a reverse idea from the closed house. The Japanese economy gradually recovered inthe 1980s， embracing a steady period from the mid-1980s until the so-called bubble economy arrived. All of us started to think about the ways of makingarchitecture more open to the society in this new era. Mr. Shinohara’s architecture was more like a criticism to the times and the society. Although wedid inherit such a view in the 70s， we also began to doubt about what impacts would a passive view of society has on architecture. We would like to makearchitecture positive again. I think we entered such an era from around 1980.
FURUICHI： By positive， do you mean “transparency”？ Terms like that emerged at the time.
ITO： That was later， actually. After we experienced the hard times of the bubble economy in the late 1980s， it felt like we lost the feelings of our bodies.Especially when you walked on the street at night， it felt dream-like. I wanted to make such feelings into architecture. In other words， it’s the architecturethat has its structure vanished， its gravity lost， becoming light and translucent. So I began to think very hard on how to realize such a type of architecture.
FURUICHI： Were there any works that represent this “light and translucent” concept of yours？
ITO： Starting from the Silver Hut， I later designed the Pao for Tokyo‘s Nomad Women， which was just a conceptual design. I think that represents myimagination most directly. Then there was the Tower of Winds in Yokohama. After that， I did the Restaurant Bar Nomad in Roppongi. However， thatrestaurant building only existed for a year and a half before it was rebuilt. Anyway， that was the time when I switched to designing light and transparentarchitecture.
FURUICHI： Ms. Kazuyo Sejima was also influenced by Mr. Ito’s design concepts of “light and transparent” at the time， wasn’t she？
ITO： She was the model of the Pao for Tokyo‘s Nomad Women， which was actually co-designed by the two of us. She certainly was largely influenced bythose design concepts. However， she also has her own style. Rather than this type of light and fluffy stuff， she was going in another direction towards moreabstract minimalism， to be exact.
FURUICHI： THE TIMES OF SUCH A STYLE HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR QUITE A WHILE， DURING WHICH TIME YOU ALSO DESIGNED SOMECOMMERCIAL BUILDINGS， LIKE THE RESTAURANT BAR NOMADO YOU JUST MENTIONED. THEN， AFTER THAT PERIOD WAS OVER， YOU CAME UPWITH THE GROUND-BREAKING DESIGN OF THE YATSUSHIRO MUNICIPAL MUSEUM ALL OF A SUDDEN.
伊东∶是的。熊本的Art-Polis 这个项目，正是以当时那种经济景气为背景，当时的熊本县知事，后来当选为首相的细川 先生与矶崎先生商量，将由县发包的公共项目委托世界知名的建筑师来设计，就这样从1988 年开始，筱原一男先生设计了警察署，接着还委托了汉斯·霍来因 等来设计了美术馆，不过这个项目最终没有实现。
ITO： Sort of. The Kumamoto Artpolis35 Program was set up at the good time in a booming economy. The then governor， Mr. Hosokawa36， who later becamethe Prime Minister of Japan， talked with Mr. Isozaki about inviting world-famous architects to design the public projects contracted by the prefecture.According to that idea， several public buildings have been designed in Kumamoto since 1988. Mr. Shinohara designed the Police Department Building. Thenthey appointed Mr. Hans Hollein37 to design the Art Museum， but the building was not built eventually.
FURUICHI： They even invited foreign architects？
ITO： Right. Mr. Isozaki served as the general director of the Artpolis Program and worked with architects at home and abroad. When the YatsushiroMunicipal Museum project came into being， he nominated me to design it. That was the first time when I worked on a public building.
FURUICHI： During that time， the Shinkenchiku journal even published an article on the argument and discussion between Mr. Isozaki and the NobushiGeneration. It was really interesting and we were very excited when reading it.
伊东∶是那个事情。那是在80 年代的后半期，我和石山先生搞了一个策划，聚集一些有趣的人来议论这个事情。包括矶崎先生、筱原先生、还有安藤先生，另外还有长谷川逸子、山本理显等。其中最年轻要算山本先生、石井先生这些，另外还有毛纲毅旷 先生。渡边丰和 也在。这些话多的伙计们集合在矶崎先生家，说着说着就变成了批判矶崎先生的调子。结果在议论中矶崎先生突然发火了。说道∶“像你们这些只搞过住宅的建筑师，在欧洲都称不上建筑师。”
ITO： Ah-ha， about that. It was in the late 1980s， when Mr. Ishiyama and I organized a salon to invite some interesting people together and talk about thisissue， including Mr. Isozaki， Mr. Shinohara， and Mr. Ando. Itsuko Hasegawa and Riken Yamamoto also joined the discussion. Mr. Yamamoto and Mr. Ishiiwere the youngest among us. We also had Mr. Kikou Modzuna38 and Mr. Toyokazu Watanabe39. These very talkative guys all gathered at Mr. Isozaki’s house.As we talked and talked， the discussion shifted towards criticizing Mr. Isozaki. Then， at some point， Mr. Isozaki broke out and said： “In Europe， architects who only designed houses like you guys are not even regarded as real architects.”
FURUICHI： That event was widely publicized on the magazines later.
ITO： Mr. Isozaki also wrote an article about it.The meeting minutes were all recorded by people from Mr. Ishiyama’s office and written into an article.Honestly， the discussion was truly exciting.
FURUICHI： Was it because of that event that Mr. Isozaki wanted to challenge you guys to design something else？
伊东∶是的。说真的，这是我后来才听到的内情， 他们都为我没有做过公共项目而担心。那个项目是博物馆，而且Art-Polis 也才刚开始，如果在这里失败了可就麻烦了，所以他们又暗地里想去委托谷口吉生 先生。刚巧谷口先生因为太忙告诉他们自己干不了，这时他们才想∶没办法，那就交给伊东好了。对我来说，因为是第一次设计公共建筑，那时心情真的非常紧张。
ITO： True. Actually， they were all worried about me designing the museum as I had never worked on public buildings. I didn’t know about it until later，though. The project was a major museum and it was the time when the Artpolis Program just launched， so it would be quite frustrating if the project failed.Given that， they wanted to ask Mr. Yoshio Taniguchi40 to do it in secret. Unfortunately， Mr. Taniguchi happened to be too busy to accept the project at thetime. So they thought： well， we had no other option but to let Ito do it then. As for me， I was extremely nervous at the time， because that was my first timeto design a public building.
FURUICHI： That was your first public building， which is completely differently from what you had been doing before. What did you put into consideration then？
ITO： I first visited Mr. Hosokawa， who told me in person that the design must at least consider how to be in harmony with the ancient building of theMatsuhama Residence across the street. The ancient building is in a similar style to the old Hosokawa Residence. The architecture is truly elegant， widelyregarded as the most valuable heritage in the City of Yatsushiro. Its name is written as “Residence of The Beach of Pine Trees”. The site used to be on theseaside in ancient times and many cultural relics were preserved there. Compared to such an elegant ancient building， the museum I was to design is of amuch larger scale， at least of 1000 tsubos. Therefore， it’s quite unlikely to achieve harmony with that ancient building. So I set the building back and pile upsoil in front， making it look like a small building on top of a hill.
FURUICHI： I see. So that’s why there is a hill in front of the building.
ITO： Exactly. This idea came to me at an early stage of the designing process， but it took me quite a while to figure out how to design the storage room.Because the project was built on reclamation ground， the underground water level was so high that we could not build the storage room underground. Ithought about this issue over and over again until we finally came up with the idea to put it on top of the building.
FURUICHI： After this project， you seem to be engaged with the Yatsushiro City and appointed to do a range of projects there.
ITO： Yes. The design of the museum was widely well-received. Even many foreigners came to visit the building from abroad. Yatsushiro City never had somany foreigners before and the mayor was overjoyed to see them coming. So he thought， well， there might be even more visitors if we build a couple morepublic buildings like that， such as the Fire Station and the Home for the Elderly. That was really the high time. As a result， I was appointed to do anothertwo projects.
FURUICHI： And then you have been specialized in designing public buildings ever since.
ITO： Yes. Through these projects， I gained experiences and reputation， which then helped me to bid in several public building design competitions in the1990s. The effects of the first piece are truly tremendous， so to speak.
FURUICHI： AMONG ALL THE PUBLIC BUILDINGS YOU DESIGNED， FROM THE YATSUSHIRO MUNICIPAL MUSEUM TO THE SENDAI MEDIATHEQUE ，WHICH WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE REPRESENTATIVE WORKS OF YOURS？
ITO： Well， talking about the later projects， the Suma Lake Museum in my hometown Nagano Prefecture and the Nagaoka Lyric Hall are both publicprojects. I also designed the Fire Station and the Home for the Elderly in Yatsushiro City， which are both public buildings， too. What I learned from thoseprojects was that the governments generally would not question the architectural styles or building forms， as long as the functions and the costs workedout fine. What they really cared about was the contents inside of the buildings， which they usually would arrange by themselves. For instance， all the floorarrangements in the Yatsushiro Municipal Museum were designed by the museum staff and we had no say whatsoever in the aspect of management. Theobjects in display were all placed in glass boxes in the museum， even though they were not extremely valuable. They were doing that only because it wasconvenient for achieving monitor-free management. However， I think the glass display totally neglected the psychological needs of the visitors， the needsto get closer to the objects in display. Then I began to have the thought that we need some ground-breaking ideas on those aspects， or else the design ofpublic buildings would not mean much. To embody that thought， when I worked on the Yatsushiro Fire Station project， I designed it in a way that everyonecan visit the building freely. In particular， as there is a primary school next to the site， I had the idea of placing the building on columns and lifting up theground floor， allowing the kids to walk through underneath the building and watch the firemen training.
FURUICHI： I visited the building after its completion. I just walked in casually without being asked anything.
ITO： Firemen’s everyday life is all about group training. These young men live together， eat together， and even squeeze together for sleep. Their trainingseems like just simple repetition， yet it is actually very important work. Moreover， sirens and other noises often come out of the fire station， so theneighbors were not really happy about it. In order to make people better understand the hard work of firemen， I made such a design that everyone couldwalk in and out freely.
FURUICHI： It’s very rare to see a fire station open like this. Normally fire stations are closed facilities.
ITO： For a fire station， the most crucial thing is to be ready at any time and to set out immediately when called for. It does bring a little trouble when theoutsiders often linger around.
FURUICHI： In that aspect， the design of this project is truly a revolutionary idea.
ITO： I’d say so. I did spend a lot of time pondering on it.
FURUICHI： The Home for the Elderly in Yatsushiro also has a very open and welcoming atmosphere. Nobody would ask much even if I walk in withoutregistering at the front desk.
ITO： That’s right. The seniors would love to see young people coming over to visit them. The site of that project is located far from the city center， thus Imake it an open facility so that the city residents can walk over here casually.
FURUICHI： So this idea of openness started at that time and was then increasingly applied in your later architectural designs.
ITO： Yes. After I designed a couple of public buildings， I had the insight that “if I were asked to do something like this， I could work it out with a little tweak”.Then， there came the opportunity of bidding for the Sendai Mediatheque project.
FURUICHI： And the Taisha Bunka Place is also an inter-connected open space without dividing walls or boundaries.
ITO： That’s right. The library and the theater are combined as one. The theater is used sparsely while the library is frequently visited every day. So when I combined them together， it not only brings businesses to the café but also sets up a vibrant and lively atmosphere.
FURUICHI： The design of the Sendai Mediatheque after that is truly a world-shattering masterpiece to us.
ITO： I remember that the Taisha Bunka Place was my first bid， which was around 1993， earlier than the Sendai project. During the designing process， theproject was delayed due to the merging of towns and was even dismissed at some point along the way. After another round of resident survey， the resultsshowed that the residents wanted to add a library. Therefore， the project transformed from just a theater to the combination of a theater and a library， andthe design work could continue on.
Furuichi： I see. In other words， you proposed the open-space design at the same time？
Ito： That’s right.
FURUICHI： AND THEN THE BREATH-TAKING MEDIATHEQUE DESIGN CAME INTO BEING WITH SUCH AN ASTONISHING POWER. THAT ORIGINALSKETCH OF YOURS IS QUITE FAMOUS NOW. UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES DID YOU MAKE THAT SKETCH？
ITO： We studied the functions of the Mediatheque and found out it was basically office. Namely， the building was pretty much just an office building，despite that it also includes a library， and a gallery， and a small theater for visual presentation. It’s not bad to have office space with high ceiling， though.The theater was the only part that requires to be designed in a holistic way and all the other functions could be arranged on the floor plan. Except forthe office space， the ceilings of the gallery and the theater must be ten meters high， which was the only request from the client， so we took that intoconsideration separately from the very beginning of the design.
ITO： Inside the homogeneous squared space， we tried to insert a dome-like curved space. Then we thought， well， it would be nice to have some lightshedding down from above， so we came up with the idea to craft it like a tube. Meanwhile， we made the dome shaped like a woven basket as part of thebuilding structure， which was eventually replaced by the tube-like structure.
FURUICHI： So how did you proceed with this so-called coordinating design in structure？
ITO： I work together with Mr. Sasaki41 regularly now. It was at the early stage of our collaboration when we did the Mediatheque project together. Thefirst project we worked on together was the Taisha Bunka Place. After that， I invited Mr. Sasaki to collaborate with me on the Mediatheque project again. Ialways had discussions with the structure designer at the very beginning of a project， followed by constant research and studies. It’s almost like we are codesigningthe project together. I remember when I first faxed my sketch of the tube-like design to Mr. Sasaki， he replied： “This is brilliant！” Maybe he was soexcited about the project that in merely a week he sent me back his structure concept on how to embody my design.
FURUICHI： So how did you come up with that sketch， then？
ITO： After I designed the dome-like gallery， I was thinking about the next steps. Then I figured that I could design everything on flat floors as long as I raisethe ceiling of the first floor. In that way， everything became smooth. Once I made that decision， the only thing left was the tube part. When I made them aspart of the structure， the building then became a combination of flat floors and a tube structure.
FURUICHI： Wow， this is truly a flash design！
ITO： It actually came to me when I was on the train. I was invited to give a speech at the AA School in London at that time， so I took the Narita Sky Access
to the airport and made the sketch on the way.
FURUICHI： You sketched it on the train？
ITO： Indeed， on the train. After all， it was already conceptualized in my mind.
FURUICHI： But I know that the train to the airport only takes about an hour.
ITO： Right. I didn’t have much time， so the sketch was fairly coarse. I just drew everything I had in mind on the paper and faxed it to Mr. Sasaki at theairport. Upon receiving the fax， he replied：”It could work.” So just like that， everything was done on one stretch.
Z： DID YOU CONSIDER PRESENTING THE BEAUTY OF THAT STRUCTURE AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE DESIGN？
ITO： When I bid for the design competition， the structure was very thin， more like a net rather than a bold structure. Or， I should say， it was like a tube oflight shedding down from above. That was how the structure looked like in the original model I used in the bidding.
Furuichi： I do think that design is the masterpiece of the end of the 20th century， truly thrilling.
ITO： The shape is quite beautiful indeed. Mr. Sasaki thought it might be possible to make it more like a woven basket by using thinner structural members，but it would be very difficult in construction as there would be too many welding spots. Therefore， our best option was to use slightly bolder members，which then made up the final structure.
Furuichi： After the project is built， some architects would interpret their design to their favors. But I remember that Mr. Ito wrote in an article， saying： “I was going to design something light and translucent， yet ended up with something so bold and heavy”， which really impressed me. What an honest confession！
ITO： Well. The reason why we ended up with a building heavier than we expected was basically due to the difficulties in the construction process. Comparedto what we had in mind， Mr. Sasaki knew the structure better. He said： “the span between two tubes has already reached nearly 15 meters， 20 meters，or so.” We felt that bolder tubes undermined the sense of scale， which irritated Mr. Sasaki， who said： “It’s already a big achievement to make it as thin asthis. The light structure you imagined is a mission impossible in structure！” Mr. Sasaki always studied the issues about construction very carefully for us.Eventually， he said he should be able to think of ways of doing it if we made it a little bolder， so we just decided to do it that way. Later in the constructionprocess， we did have the issues with the tube structure， and the floors were quite challenging as well. We need to weld the honeycomb floor slabs multipletimes. We had to attach the rib members to the slabs on the lower ceiling， deliver them to the site， and weld them together before we put the lid on. So thestructure was actually composed of two floor slabs， one on the top， the other at the bottom， with rib members in the middle.
FURUICHI： Was it like a beehive？
Z： The floor slabs must be very thick if they were used as part of the structure， I suppose？
ITO： They were about 40-cm thick. Given that the structure spans for about 20 meters， 40 cm is actually quite thin. Normally， if we use steel structure，the slab thickness would be around 1/20 of the span， so a 20m-span would require a 1m-thick slab. Now you can see that 40 cm is really really thin. Whenwe constructed the floor slabs， we need to pre-weld them， inspect the tilting， adjust them and then complete the entire welding at last. It was very cold inSendai at that time. When we proceeded with construction at night， the parts that were pre-welded in the day contracted dramatically and made big noises.Some parts even popped out as a whole.
FURUICHI： Was it the time when the term “algorithm 42” appeared？
ITO： Well， that was later.
古市∶蛇型艺廊 是2002 年完成的吧？
FURUICHI： Then you designed the Serpentine Gallery43 in 2002， right？
ITO： Yes. I co-designed it with structure specialist Cecil Balmond44. He mentioned “algorithm” a lot.
FURUICHI： Did you design the TOD’S Omotesando Building in a similar way， of an algorithm？
Kazuo Shinohara (1925-2006) was a highly influential Japanese architect and educator. He taught in Tokyo Institute of Technology and some of the most influential architects such as Toyo Ito and Hasegawa Itsuko.
Koji Taki (1928-2011) was a Japanese art critic who conducted research on Japanese modern architects and architecture.
Art-Polis， namely the Kumamoto Artpolis Program， is an urban development program in Kumamoto Prefecture， established on the idea of realizing cultural improvement through architecture and urban planning. The program was launched by the then governor， Morihiro Hosokawa， based on the reflection on the indistinguishable urban images of Japanese cities during the period of rapid economic growth， with an aim to create a unique garden city culture of Kumamoto. The most distinct characteristic of this program is to use ajudging committee to choose the designers of the projects， instead of using the conventional bidding format. About a dozen urban development projects have already been builtunder this program to date. The current and the president of the third judging committee is Toyo Ito.
36.细川护熙（1938-），生于东京都千代田区。1993 年至1994 年就任日本第79 任日本首相。
Morihiro Hosokawa， born in 1938， is a Japanese politician who was the 79th Prime Minister of Japan from 9 August 1993 to 28 April 1994.
37.汉斯·霍来因（1934-），奥地利建筑师、设计师。毕业于维也纳艺术学院，1959 年和1960 年先后求学于芝加哥伊利诺理工学院、加利福尼亚大学伯克利分校。曾任教于维也纳的应用美术学院，并为康涅狄格州纽黑文的耶鲁大学的客座教授，并于1985 年荣获普立兹克建筑奖。
Hans Hollein， born in 1934， is an Austrian architect and designer and the awardee of the Pritzker Prize in 1985. Hollein was born in Vienna， and received a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts Vienna in 1956. He attended the Illinois Institute of Technology in 1959 and the University of California in 1960. Hollein used to teach at a few universities in the U.S. and Germany. Since 1976 he has been a professor at the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna.
Kikou Modzuna (1941-2001) was a Japanese architect， most known for taking Fengshui into consideration in his design.
39.渡边丰和（1938-），日本建筑师、京都造型艺术大学名誉教授、日本后现代主义代表建筑师之一。1961 年毕业于福井大学工学部建筑系、之后在东京大学取得工学博士学位。设计上注重曲线曲面的表现。代表作包括龙神村民体育馆 (1987)、秋田市体育馆(1994)、对马丰玉町文化馆(1990) 等。著作有《现代建筑样式论》（1971） 、《天之建筑、地之住宅》（1987）等多数。
Toyokazu Watanabe， born in 1938， is a Japanese architect and professor at the Kyoto University of Art and Design. He is one of the representatives of the post-modernism architects in Japan. He graduated from the Department of Architect at the University of Fukui in 1961 and obtained his doctor‘s degree from the University of Tokyo later on. His design is especially focused on using curved surfaces. Noted works of his include the Gymnasium of Ryujin Village (1987)， Gymnasium of Akita City (1994)， and the Cultural Hall of Toyotama Town in Tsushima， etc. He also authored a number of books， including Thesis on Style of Modern Architecture (1971) and Heavenly Architecture and Earthly Residence(1987)， etc.
Yoshio Taniguchi， born in 1937， is a Japanese architect and guest professor at the Tokyo University of the Arts， specialized in designing museums. He has won many prizes including the Annual Prize from AIJ， the Prize of Yoshida Isoya and the Praemium Imperiale。
Sasaki Mutsuro， born in 1946， is an architect who teaches at the Hosei University， specialized in architectural structure. He once worked at Toshiko Kimura Structural Engineers.
An algorithm is a step-by-step procedure for calculations， widely used for calculation， data processing， and automated reasoning in mathematics and computer science.
The Serpentine Galleries are two contemporary art galleries in Kensington Gardens， Hyde Park， central London， which are designed annually by noted architects.
Cecil Balmond， born in 1943， is a noted structural engineer who focuses on innovative structural design. In 1968 Balmond joined Ove Arup & Partners， leading him to become deputy chairman.