伊东丰雄访谈(二)

  • 来源:建筑创作
  • 关键字:伊东丰雄,建筑,日本
  • 发布时间:2014-04-11 10:46

  伊东∶在建成后不久,我去参观筱原一男[33] 的家,在那里第一次遇上多木浩二[34] 先生,在多木先生的影响下我也有了与矶崎先生接近的机会。

  ITO: Not long after its completion, I paid a visit to Mr. Kazuo Shinohara33’s home, where I met Mr. Koji Taki34 for the very first time. Thanks to Mr. Taki andMr. Shinohara, I had the opportunities to get closer to Mr. Isozaki.

  古市∶您对篠原先生是如何看的呢?

  FURUICHI: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MR. SHINOHARA?

  伊东∶以大阪世博会为契机,我们对丹下健三、新陈代谢派搞的未来城市之类的内容本质上是怎样的东西,它的实现究竟是怎样一回事等很多问题,开始思考。1970 年代那时可以说,大伙儿都很内向。我想在那样的时代背景中,筱原一男先生关于住宅设计那种封闭在内部中的、不管多小也要创造出理想世界的对住宅的姿态看上去非常耀眼。

  ITO: Well, the Osaka World Expo ’70 offered us a great opportunity to ponder upon many things in architecture, to think about Mr. Tange and theMetabolists’ works, to figure out what the future city visions were actually about and how those visions might by realized. The 1970s was the time wheneveryone was sort of introvertive. In such a setting, Mr. Shinohara’s attitude toward housing design was to create an ideal world in closed space, howeversmall the space might be. I think that was a quite outstanding attitude.

  古市∶那您都受到筱原先生的哪些影响呢?

  FURUICHI: In what way were you influenced by Mr. Shinohara, then?

  伊东∶很受影响。那个时代,包括安藤先生,大家全都开始设计那种对外封闭的家。

  ITO: In many ways. During that time, everyone started to design that type of introvertive houses, including Mr. Tadao Ando.

  古市∶中野本町之家,真是那个时候的感觉。

  FURUICHI: The White U truly represents the style of that era.

  伊东∶中野本町之家可以说是受到筱原先生的影响,或是受到了矶崎先生所写内容的影响。试着做出来后觉得这么封闭行吗?从那里又开始了新的历史。

  ITO: The White U was designed under the influence of Mr. Shinohara, or you could say, under the influence of the writings of Mr. Isozaki. After I tried it out,I had another thought: “Is it O.K. to design a house that closes everything out of it?” And then, I began a new history of my design from there.

  古市∶那就是银色小屋项目吧?

  FURUICHI: Then there was the Silver Hut.

  伊东∶是的。一直在想着如何能够让那个建筑展开来,这种反向思维便是从那里开始的。进入80 年代,日本的经济也逐渐恢复,迎来了从80 年代中期一直到所谓的泡沫经济的时期。我们也都开始思考诸如在那种时代下,能对社会更加开放的建筑之道的事情。筱原先生的建筑,是那种批评时代,或批评、批判社会的作品,虽然我们在70 年代也继承了这个性质,不过也开始对“消极看待社会的那种批评性究竟在建筑上作用如何”有了疑问。希望再次把它变成积极的,我想从大约80 年起应该是进入到了这样的时代。

  Ito: That’s right. I had been thinking about how to unfold the building, a reverse idea from the closed house. The Japanese economy gradually recovered inthe 1980s, embracing a steady period from the mid-1980s until the so-called bubble economy arrived. All of us started to think about the ways of makingarchitecture more open to the society in this new era. Mr. Shinohara’s architecture was more like a criticism to the times and the society. Although wedid inherit such a view in the 70s, we also began to doubt about what impacts would a passive view of society has on architecture. We would like to makearchitecture positive again. I think we entered such an era from around 1980.

  古市∶是透明性吧,出现了这样的言词。

  FURUICHI: By positive, do you mean “transparency”? Terms like that emerged at the time.

  伊东∶那是再往后一些的。在经历了80年代后半期的泡沫经济的景气后,就好像失去了自我身体感觉那样。总之,尤其每当晚上走在街上,便有一种发梦般的感觉。我便想把那种印象做成建筑。就是说,结构消失了、透明轻盈、失去了重力的建筑那样的,于是我开始拼命思考怎么才能实现出这样的建筑来。

  ITO: That was later, actually. After we experienced the hard times of the bubble economy in the late 1980s, it felt like we lost the feelings of our bodies.Especially when you walked on the street at night, it felt dream-like. I wanted to make such feelings into architecture. In other words, it’s the architecturethat has its structure vanished, its gravity lost, becoming light and translucent. So I began to think very hard on how to realize such a type of architecture.

  古市∶有没有体现出当时伊东先生的那种轻盈透明理念的代表作?

  FURUICHI: Were there any works that represent this “light and translucent” concept of yours?

  伊东∶从银色小屋开始,之后又做了东京游牧少女的敖包这个只有概念设计的项目,我想它最直接地表现出那种形象。另外还有横滨的风之塔。之后是在六本木的“NOMAD”游牧餐厅。不过这个餐馆也只持续了一年半左右便被改掉了。就是从那时开始转变为设计轻盈而有透明感的建筑。

  ITO: Starting from the Silver Hut, I later designed the Pao for Tokyo‘s Nomad Women, which was just a conceptual design. I think that represents myimagination most directly. Then there was the Tower of Winds in Yokohama. After that, I did the Restaurant Bar Nomad in Roppongi. However, thatrestaurant building only existed for a year and a half before it was rebuilt. Anyway, that was the time when I switched to designing light and transparentarchitecture.

  古市∶妹岛和世女士也受到这种轻盈而透明的时代的伊东先生的影响吧?

  FURUICHI: Ms. Kazuyo Sejima was also influenced by Mr. Ito’s design concepts of “light and transparent” at the time, wasn’t she?

  伊东∶她便是那个游牧少女的敖包的模型,实际上也是和她一起设计的。所以当然这方面受到的影响也比较大的。她有她自身的倾向,与其说是这种软绵绵的东西,确切地说,她朝向另外一种极简的更加抽象的方向。

  ITO: She was the model of the Pao for Tokyo‘s Nomad Women, which was actually co-designed by the two of us. She certainly was largely influenced bythose design concepts. However, she also has her own style. Rather than this type of light and fluffy stuff, she was going in another direction towards moreabstract minimalism, to be exact.

  古市∶这种风格的时代一直持续着,期间您也做了一些比如刚刚提到的NOMAD 等这样的商业项目吧。在这个时代过去后,八代市立博物馆突然震撼地出现了。

  FURUICHI: THE TIMES OF SUCH A STYLE HAD BEEN GOING ON FOR QUITE A WHILE, DURING WHICH TIME YOU ALSO DESIGNED SOMECOMMERCIAL BUILDINGS, LIKE THE RESTAURANT BAR NOMADO YOU JUST MENTIONED. THEN, AFTER THAT PERIOD WAS OVER, YOU CAME UPWITH THE GROUND-BREAKING DESIGN OF THE YATSUSHIRO MUNICIPAL MUSEUM ALL OF A SUDDEN.

  伊东∶是的。熊本的Art-Polis[35] 这个项目,正是以当时那种经济景气为背景,当时的熊本县知事,后来当选为首相的细川[36] 先生与矶崎先生商量,将由县发包的公共项目委托世界知名的建筑师来设计,就这样从1988 年开始,筱原一男先生设计了警察署,接着还委托了汉斯·霍来因[37] 等来设计了美术馆,不过这个项目最终没有实现。

  ITO: Sort of. The Kumamoto Artpolis35 Program was set up at the good time in a booming economy. The then governor, Mr. Hosokawa36, who later becamethe Prime Minister of Japan, talked with Mr. Isozaki about inviting world-famous architects to design the public projects contracted by the prefecture.According to that idea, several public buildings have been designed in Kumamoto since 1988. Mr. Shinohara designed the Police Department Building. Thenthey appointed Mr. Hans Hollein37 to design the Art Museum, but the building was not built eventually.

  古市∶国外建筑师也参加了。

  FURUICHI: They even invited foreign architects?

  伊东∶是。联合国外的建筑师一起,矶崎先生作为联合体的总指挥,到了八代的博物馆的时候,他提名由我来接班。那次是我首次参与了公共建筑的工作。

  ITO: Right. Mr. Isozaki served as the general director of the Artpolis Program and worked with architects at home and abroad. When the YatsushiroMunicipal Museum project came into being, he nominated me to design it. That was the first time when I worked on a public building.

  古市∶那时《新建筑》杂志还刊登了矶崎先生与野武士世代之间的争吵议论等呢。内容非常有趣,我们也在阅读中受到了刺激。

  FURUICHI: During that time, the Shinkenchiku journal even published an article on the argument and discussion between Mr. Isozaki and the NobushiGeneration. It was really interesting and we were very excited when reading it.

  伊东∶是那个事情。那是在80 年代的后半期,我和石山先生搞了一个策划,聚集一些有趣的人来议论这个事情。包括矶崎先生、筱原先生、还有安藤先生,另外还有长谷川逸子、山本理显等。其中最年轻要算山本先生、石井先生这些,另外还有毛纲毅旷[38] 先生。渡边丰和[39] 也在。这些话多的伙计们集合在矶崎先生家,说着说着就变成了批判矶崎先生的调子。结果在议论中矶崎先生突然发火了。说道∶“像你们这些只搞过住宅的建筑师,在欧洲都称不上建筑师。”

  ITO: Ah-ha, about that. It was in the late 1980s, when Mr. Ishiyama and I organized a salon to invite some interesting people together and talk about thisissue, including Mr. Isozaki, Mr. Shinohara, and Mr. Ando. Itsuko Hasegawa and Riken Yamamoto also joined the discussion. Mr. Yamamoto and Mr. Ishiiwere the youngest among us. We also had Mr. Kikou Modzuna38 and Mr. Toyokazu Watanabe39. These very talkative guys all gathered at Mr. Isozaki’s house.As we talked and talked, the discussion shifted towards criticizing Mr. Isozaki. Then, at some point, Mr. Isozaki broke out and said: “In Europe, architects who only designed houses like you guys are not even regarded as real architects.”

  古市∶那个事情后来在杂志上被作了广泛介绍。

  FURUICHI: That event was widely publicized on the magazines later.

  伊东∶矶崎先生也将其写成了文章。那次的会议纪要,由石山先生事务所的人全部记录下来并形成了文章,说实在那个内容太有意思了。

  ITO: Mr. Isozaki also wrote an article about it.The meeting minutes were all recorded by people from Mr. Ishiyama’s office and written into an article.Honestly, the discussion was truly exciting.

  古市∶是不是由于那次的事情,矶崎先生想着让这帮人再做个什么东西呢?

  FURUICHI: Was it because of that event that Mr. Isozaki wanted to challenge you guys to design something else?

  伊东∶是的。说真的,这是我后来才听到的内情, 他们都为我没有做过公共项目而担心。那个项目是博物馆,而且Art-Polis 也才刚开始,如果在这里失败了可就麻烦了,所以他们又暗地里想去委托谷口吉生[40] 先生。刚巧谷口先生因为太忙告诉他们自己干不了,这时他们才想∶没办法,那就交给伊东好了。对我来说,因为是第一次设计公共建筑,那时心情真的非常紧张。

  ITO: True. Actually, they were all worried about me designing the museum as I had never worked on public buildings. I didn’t know about it until later,though. The project was a major museum and it was the time when the Artpolis Program just launched, so it would be quite frustrating if the project failed.Given that, they wanted to ask Mr. Yoshio Taniguchi40 to do it in secret. Unfortunately, Mr. Taniguchi happened to be too busy to accept the project at thetime. So they thought: well, we had no other option but to let Ito do it then. As for me, I was extremely nervous at the time, because that was my first timeto design a public building.

  古市∶与之前所做的内容不同,这次是您初次设计公共建筑,当时都考虑了哪些内容?

  FURUICHI: That was your first public building, which is completely differently from what you had been doing before. What did you put into consideration then?

  伊东∶最初去拜访了细川先生,他当面告诉我,隔着道路,在用地正面的对面,有叫“松滨轩”的像细川家别墅那样的老建筑,设计上至少必须仔细考虑与那个建筑的调和。那个老建筑是称得上八代市文物首选那样的洒脱的建筑物,名字写成“松”的“滨”的“轩”。在古代那儿是海。那时在那里保存着各种文物。相对那个潇洒的老建筑,我想这边设计的体量少说也有一千坪左右,调和是不太可能的了,于是把建筑退后,在用地前部填土,采用了在山丘上建小楼那样的方法。

  ITO: I first visited Mr. Hosokawa, who told me in person that the design must at least consider how to be in harmony with the ancient building of theMatsuhama Residence across the street. The ancient building is in a similar style to the old Hosokawa Residence. The architecture is truly elegant, widelyregarded as the most valuable heritage in the City of Yatsushiro. Its name is written as “Residence of The Beach of Pine Trees”. The site used to be on theseaside in ancient times and many cultural relics were preserved there. Compared to such an elegant ancient building, the museum I was to design is of amuch larger scale, at least of 1000 tsubos. Therefore, it’s quite unlikely to achieve harmony with that ancient building. So I set the building back and pile upsoil in front, making it look like a small building on top of a hill.

  古市∶原来是这样,所以那里前面有了小山岗啊。

  FURUICHI: I see. So that’s why there is a hill in front of the building.

  伊东∶是的。在设计比较初期的阶段便有了这个理念,不过在设计收藏库上却费了不少工夫。因为用地是填海地,水位很高无法将这个功能放入地下,

  想来想去最终是设计为让它浮在上面。

  ITO: Exactly. This idea came to me at an early stage of the designing process, but it took me quite a while to figure out how to design the storage room.Because the project was built on reclamation ground, the underground water level was so high that we could not build the storage room underground. Ithought about this issue over and over again until we finally came up with the idea to put it on top of the building.

  古市∶这个项目之后,算是和八代市结下缘份,被委托作了各种各样的工作吧。

  FURUICHI: After this project, you seem to be engaged with the Yatsushiro City and appointed to do a range of projects there.

  伊东∶是的。那个项目得到好评,还有不少国外的人慕名而来参观。之前八代市很多人从没见过这么多老外的,老外来参观这事把市长乐坏了。就想如果把消防站和老人之家合起来造它三几个的,来的人便更多了。那时真是个美好的时代。就这样我又被指名委托了两个项目。

  ITO: Yes. The design of the museum was widely well-received. Even many foreigners came to visit the building from abroad. Yatsushiro City never had somany foreigners before and the mayor was overjoyed to see them coming. So he thought, well, there might be even more visitors if we build a couple morepublic buildings like that, such as the Fire Station and the Home for the Elderly. That was really the high time. As a result, I was appointed to do anothertwo projects.

  古市∶从那以后您可以说是一直搞开了公共项目吧。

  FURUICHI: And then you have been specialized in designing public buildings ever since.

  伊东∶是呵,由于经历了这些项目,有了业绩,因此得以参加90 年代的公共建筑的方案投标。所以说头一个的作用是巨大的。

  ITO: Yes. Through these projects, I gained experiences and reputation, which then helped me to bid in several public building design competitions in the1990s. The effects of the first piece are truly tremendous, so to speak.

  古市∶那么在之后您设计的公共建筑中,就您自身来看,从那次的八代市立博物馆到仙台媒体中心,如果举例的话都有哪些项目呢?

  FURUICHI: AMONG ALL THE PUBLIC BUILDINGS YOU DESIGNED, FROM THE YATSUSHIRO MUNICIPAL MUSEUM TO THE SENDAI MEDIATHEQUE ,WHICH WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE REPRESENTATIVE WORKS OF YOURS?

  伊东∶以后嘛,比如在我老家的长野县诹访湖边的博物馆。还有长冈,就是新泻县长冈音乐厅。大概是这样的一些项目。还有八代市的消防站和老人之家也是公共项目。从中体验到的是,八代的博物馆也好,下诹访的博物馆也好,政府方面对所谓形象的表现没有任何意见。只要功能和成本没问题就行。他们关注的是里头的内容。建筑内容是他们自己编制的,比如博物馆项目上内容全部是由博物馆方面作的,我们一点也干预不到。从管理这个侧面上来说。比如在八代博物馆中展示的东西,虽然并非非常珍贵的文物,也全部要放入到玻璃展柜中。据说是为了实现不用监控的管理。仅仅是由于这个理由,完全没有顾及到人们参观时的心理感受,即人们希望更加接近展品这方面的要求,我当时开始有了“在这方面不做些突破,公共建筑做再多也没多大意思”的想法。因此,在设计消防站时为了实现这个想法,构思了谁都可以自由参观的设计。尤其在用地旁边就是小学,所以我构思将建筑物采用底层架空的作法,让小孩子们在回家时从建筑下面穿过,这样就可以看到消防员在操习等训练的风景。

  ITO: Well, talking about the later projects, the Suma Lake Museum in my hometown Nagano Prefecture and the Nagaoka Lyric Hall are both publicprojects. I also designed the Fire Station and the Home for the Elderly in Yatsushiro City, which are both public buildings, too. What I learned from thoseprojects was that the governments generally would not question the architectural styles or building forms, as long as the functions and the costs workedout fine. What they really cared about was the contents inside of the buildings, which they usually would arrange by themselves. For instance, all the floorarrangements in the Yatsushiro Municipal Museum were designed by the museum staff and we had no say whatsoever in the aspect of management. Theobjects in display were all placed in glass boxes in the museum, even though they were not extremely valuable. They were doing that only because it wasconvenient for achieving monitor-free management. However, I think the glass display totally neglected the psychological needs of the visitors, the needsto get closer to the objects in display. Then I began to have the thought that we need some ground-breaking ideas on those aspects, or else the design ofpublic buildings would not mean much. To embody that thought, when I worked on the Yatsushiro Fire Station project, I designed it in a way that everyonecan visit the building freely. In particular, as there is a primary school next to the site, I had the idea of placing the building on columns and lifting up theground floor, allowing the kids to walk through underneath the building and watch the firemen training.

  古市∶这个项目竣工后我去参观了,随意地从上面进去也没有被人查问。

  FURUICHI: I visited the building after its completion. I just walked in casually without being asked anything.

  伊东∶消防队员们每天都像集训那样的生活。年轻的队员们吃饭在一起,睡觉也是挤在一块。训练看似简单的反复,实际上是很重要的工作。还有那里常常发出警报等各种噪音,所以附近的人都不太欢迎。为了加深人们对这种辛苦工作的理解,我设计了谁都能自由进出的方案。

  ITO: Firemen’s everyday life is all about group training. These young men live together, eat together, and even squeeze together for sleep. Their trainingseems like just simple repetition, yet it is actually very important work. Moreover, sirens and other noises often come out of the fire station, so theneighbors were not really happy about it. In order to make people better understand the hard work of firemen, I made such a design that everyone couldwalk in and out freely.

  古市∶这么开放的消防站可真稀奇啊。一般的消防站可以说都是比较封闭的设施。

  FURUICHI: It’s very rare to see a fire station open like this. Normally fire stations are closed facilities.

  伊东∶随时准备着,一有情况马上能够出动这方面最为重要,如果外部的人常常在周围溜达着确实也麻烦。

  ITO: For a fire station, the most crucial thing is to be ready at any time and to set out immediately when called for. It does bring a little trouble when theoutsiders often linger around.

  古市∶在这个意义上,那个项目的设计可是划时代的理念。

  FURUICHI: In that aspect, the design of this project is truly a revolutionary idea.

  伊东∶是的。在这方面下了很多工夫。

  ITO: I’d say so. I did spend a lot of time pondering on it.

  古市∶那个老人之家也是进出很方便的气氛。甚至进出不在前台登记也不会被多说。

  FURUICHI: The Home for the Elderly in Yatsushiro also has a very open and welcoming atmosphere. Nobody would ask much even if I walk in withoutregistering at the front desk.

  伊东∶是的。对老年人来说,能看到年轻人过来是再高兴不过的事。由于地处偏离市中心的地方,将设施作成让城区的人可以自由散步过来那样的开放型的东西。

  ITO: That’s right. The seniors would love to see young people coming over to visit them. The site of that project is located far from the city center, thus Imake it an open facility so that the city residents can walk over here casually.

  古市∶那个时代的开放理念,随后便渐渐在伊东先生的建筑中应用开了。

  FURUICHI: So this idea of openness started at that time and was then increasingly applied in your later architectural designs.

  伊东∶是的。公共项目在做了两三个后,便有了诸如“要求这种作法的话稍微这么变一下便行得通了”的应对智慧,在这个时候,有了仙台媒体中心项目的竞标。

  ITO: Yes. After I designed a couple of public buildings, I had the insight that “if I were asked to do something like this, I could work it out with a little tweak”.Then, there came the opportunity of bidding for the Sendai Mediatheque project.

  古市∶在那之后的出云大社文化会馆也是没有隔墙、没有边界的开放型连通空间。

  FURUICHI: And the Taisha Bunka Place is also an inter-connected open space without dividing walls or boundaries.

  伊东∶是的。图书馆和剧场连成一体。由于剧场的使用时间相当有限,而图书馆则是每天都有人来的设施,两者合在一起,咖啡厅的买卖也成立了,同时还形成了总是热热闹闹的气氛。

  ITO: That’s right. The library and the theater are combined as one. The theater is used sparsely while the library is frequently visited every day. So when I combined them together, it not only brings businesses to the café but also sets up a vibrant and lively atmosphere.

  古市∶之后的媒体中心的方案,对我们来说真是划时代的杰作。

  FURUICHI: The design of the Sendai Mediatheque after that is truly a world-shattering masterpiece to us.

  伊东∶记得出云的大社文化会馆是第一个的竞标,大概是在93 年,应该比仙台的项目早一些。设计过程中由于城镇间的合并问题,项目拖了很长时间,中间还作废了一回。再重新搞了一次居民问卷调查后,本来只有剧场的,因为调查结果希望加个图书馆,所以成了以图书馆和剧场为主体的东西,设计也得以继续下去。

  ITO: I remember that the Taisha Bunka Place was my first bid, which was around 1993, earlier than the Sendai project. During the designing process, theproject was delayed due to the merging of towns and was even dismissed at some point along the way. After another round of resident survey, the resultsshowed that the residents wanted to add a library. Therefore, the project transformed from just a theater to the combination of a theater and a library, andthe design work could continue on.

  古市∶哦,原来是这样。那就是说在同样那个时候您提出了开放空间的方案吧?

  Furuichi: I see. In other words, you proposed the open-space design at the same time?

  伊东∶是的。

  Ito: That’s right.

  古市∶那个仙台媒体中心方案,带着相当的冲击力闪亮登场,伊东先生那最初的草图很出名啊。那张图是在怎样的情况下描绘出来的?

  FURUICHI: AND THEN THE BREATH-TAKING MEDIATHEQUE DESIGN CAME INTO BEING WITH SUCH AN ASTONISHING POWER. THAT ORIGINALSKETCH OF YOURS IS QUITE FAMOUS NOW. UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES DID YOU MAKE THAT SKETCH?

  伊东∶我们研究了仙台媒体中心的建筑内容,结果发现实际上基本都是办公室。就是做办公空间,虽然也包括图书馆功能。层高稍微高点的办公室也不错,另外还有展廊空间和为了音频视频的小型影院。只有剧场需要工整地来设计,其它基本上都是只要平层就可以解决的内容。除了办公空间以外,展廊和剧场要求吊顶高度10 米左右,这是业主方仅有的要求,因此从一开始便把这个内容单独分开来考虑。

  ITO: We studied the functions of the Mediatheque and found out it was basically office. Namely, the building was pretty much just an office building,despite that it also includes a library, and a gallery, and a small theater for visual presentation. It’s not bad to have office space with high ceiling, though.The theater was the only part that requires to be designed in a holistic way and all the other functions could be arranged on the floor plan. Except forthe office space, the ceilings of the gallery and the theater must be ten meters high, which was the only request from the client, so we took that intoconsideration separately from the very beginning of the design.

  伊东∶尝试在方型的均质空间中,装进半圆形朝天面那样的空间。考虑如果将光线从上面投射下来也不错,于是构思了管状体量的创意。同时把这个半圆形朝天面设计成像编织的竹篮一样,形成结构的一部分。最终是替换成了那样的管状构件。

  ITO: Inside the homogeneous squared space, we tried to insert a dome-like curved space. Then we thought, well, it would be nice to have some lightshedding down from above, so we came up with the idea to craft it like a tube. Meanwhile, we made the dome shaped like a woven basket as part of thebuilding structure, which was eventually replaced by the tube-like structure.

  古市∶这种所谓结构上的协调设计,都是以怎样的形式来进行的呢?

  FURUICHI: So how did you proceed with this so-called coordinating design in structure?

  伊东∶现在多数是与佐佐木[41] 先生合作,那个时期是跟佐佐木先生合作的开始。出云的大社会馆是第一个合作项目,之后仙台的项目也委托佐佐木先生来作。和结构设计师总是在相当早期的阶段便开始协商。可以说是到了共同设计程度地来回研究。记得那时第一次将设计为管状的方案草图传给佐佐木先生。佐佐木先生回说这个太了不起了,或许被激励起来了,仅在一个星期后他便给我发回了实现这个构思的结构性创意。

  ITO: I work together with Mr. Sasaki41 regularly now. It was at the early stage of our collaboration when we did the Mediatheque project together. Thefirst project we worked on together was the Taisha Bunka Place. After that, I invited Mr. Sasaki to collaborate with me on the Mediatheque project again. Ialways had discussions with the structure designer at the very beginning of a project, followed by constant research and studies. It’s almost like we are codesigningthe project together. I remember when I first faxed my sketch of the tube-like design to Mr. Sasaki, he replied: “This is brilliant!” Maybe he was soexcited about the project that in merely a week he sent me back his structure concept on how to embody my design.

  古市∶那张草图是怎样构思出来的呢?

  FURUICHI: So how did you come up with that sketch, then?

  伊东∶设计了放进半圆形天面的展厅后,在研究下一步怎么做时,发现了只要将一层的吊顶高度升高,便整体可以设计为平层效果。这样整体便很流畅了。也只要决定了这个内容,剩下就只有管状部分了。如果把它们都作为结构体,便形成了平层地面与管状结构。

  ITO: After I designed the dome-like gallery, I was thinking about the next steps. Then I figured that I could design everything on flat floors as long as I raisethe ceiling of the first floor. In that way, everything became smooth. Once I made that decision, the only thing left was the tube part. When I made them aspart of the structure, the building then became a combination of flat floors and a tube structure.

  古市∶真是瞬间的创意呵。

  FURUICHI: Wow, this is truly a flash design!

  伊东∶这个创意是在搭城轨时想到的。那时我被英国伦敦的AA 学校邀请去作演讲,在去机场时搭乘成田快车的时候绘出了那张草图。

  ITO: It actually came to me when I was on the train. I was invited to give a speech at the AA School in London at that time, so I took the Narita Sky Access

  to the airport and made the sketch on the way.

  古市∶是在车上绘出来的?

  FURUICHI: You sketched it on the train?

  伊东∶是的,在车上画的。毕竟已经基本都构思好了的。

  ITO: Indeed, on the train. After all, it was already conceptualized in my mind.

  古市∶不过我知道那趟车到机场也就只有一个来小时吧。

  FURUICHI: But I know that the train to the airport only takes about an hour.

  伊东∶确实是这样。时间不多所以也画得比较潦草,就是把想到的都画出来,然后在机场用传真发出去的。那边佐佐木先生收到一看,说这能行。结果就这么一气呵成了。

  ITO: Right. I didn’t have much time, so the sketch was fairly coarse. I just drew everything I had in mind on the paper and faxed it to Mr. Sasaki at theairport. Upon receiving the fax, he replied:”It could work.” So just like that, everything was done on one stretch.

  张∶在设计的最初阶段,您就有将结构美表现出来的考虑吗?

  Z: DID YOU CONSIDER PRESENTING THE BEAUTY OF THAT STRUCTURE AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE DESIGN?

  伊东∶在方案竞标时那个结构体是很细的网状的形象,还不太像结构体的效果。应该说是光线从上面投射下来的光筒吧。最初竞标时的模型便是那样的形状。

  ITO: When I bid for the design competition, the structure was very thin, more like a net rather than a bold structure. Or, I should say, it was like a tube oflight shedding down from above. That was how the structure looked like in the original model I used in the bidding.

  古市∶我觉得那个方案真称得上20 世纪末的杰作、令人激动的设计。

  Furuichi: I do think that design is the masterpiece of the end of the 20th century, truly thrilling.

  伊东∶那个形象确实挺美,佐佐木先生认为采用更细的构件来表现出编织竹篮那种效果也是可能的,不过那样的话会出现太多的接点焊接,施工起来太麻烦。因此最好是采用稍微粗点的构件,最终形成了那种结构体。

  ITO: The shape is quite beautiful indeed. Mr. Sasaki thought it might be possible to make it more like a woven basket by using thinner structural members,but it would be very difficult in construction as there would be too many welding spots. Therefore, our best option was to use slightly bolder members,which then made up the final structure.

  古市∶建筑师不时会在东西做出来后,按自己的方便来写说明和解说。记得在伊东先生写的一篇文章中,我特别感动的是,伊东先生写道∶本来要设计轻盈透明的东西,没想到却做出来了非常厚重的效果。我觉得这是大实话。

  Furuichi: After the project is built, some architects would interpret their design to their favors. But I remember that Mr. Ito wrote in an article, saying: “I was going to design something light and translucent, yet ended up with something so bold and heavy”, which really impressed me. What an honest confession!

  伊东∶是的,造成这个结果的,是施工上的问题,比起我们所考虑的,佐佐木先生说的更确切,他说∶管间的跨距已经达到15米,20米了。我们觉得由于管变粗了所以模糊了尺度感,不过佐佐木先生可发火了∶作到这样已经很不容易了,你们所想的那种轻盈,结构上是做不到的。佐佐木先生总是替我们仔细研究施工方面的事情,最后他说如果是这个程度的话想办法应该可以做到,结果事情就这样决定了。确实后来在施工中,管状结构是那样,同时地板也够令人吃惊的。地板的蜂窝楼板是焊接再焊接。将下部吊顶侧的楼板上贴好了肋构件状态的部件运到现场,然后在现场焊接起来最后作上盖子。因此它是由上下两层楼板夹着中间的肋构件的结构。

  ITO: Well. The reason why we ended up with a building heavier than we expected was basically due to the difficulties in the construction process. Comparedto what we had in mind, Mr. Sasaki knew the structure better. He said: “the span between two tubes has already reached nearly 15 meters, 20 meters,or so.” We felt that bolder tubes undermined the sense of scale, which irritated Mr. Sasaki, who said: “It’s already a big achievement to make it as thin asthis. The light structure you imagined is a mission impossible in structure!” Mr. Sasaki always studied the issues about construction very carefully for us.Eventually, he said he should be able to think of ways of doing it if we made it a little bolder, so we just decided to do it that way. Later in the constructionprocess, we did have the issues with the tube structure, and the floors were quite challenging as well. We need to weld the honeycomb floor slabs multipletimes. We had to attach the rib members to the slabs on the lower ceiling, deliver them to the site, and weld them together before we put the lid on. So thestructure was actually composed of two floor slabs, one on the top, the other at the bottom, with rib members in the middle.

  古市∶是不是像蜂窝结构那样的?

  FURUICHI: Was it like a beehive?

  伊东∶是的。

  ITO: Exactly.

  张∶这样的话楼板作为结构层,厚度也不小吧?

  Z: The floor slabs must be very thick if they were used as part of the structure, I suppose?

  伊东∶厚度是40厘米。考虑结构跨度20米的话,40厘米已经是很薄了。一般来说,采用钢结构的话这个厚度是跨度的1/20,跨度20米就是1米,你想做成40厘米够薄了吧,先进行预焊接,观察整体的歪斜状况,调整完成后再进行全面焊接。仙台气候寒冷,冬天施工中白天进行了预焊接,到了夜里部件收缩,发出巨大的声响,有的甚至整块蹦了出来。

  ITO: They were about 40-cm thick. Given that the structure spans for about 20 meters, 40 cm is actually quite thin. Normally, if we use steel structure,the slab thickness would be around 1/20 of the span, so a 20m-span would require a 1m-thick slab. Now you can see that 40 cm is really really thin. Whenwe constructed the floor slabs, we need to pre-weld them, inspect the tilting, adjust them and then complete the entire welding at last. It was very cold inSendai at that time. When we proceeded with construction at night, the parts that were pre-welded in the day contracted dramatically and made big noises.Some parts even popped out as a whole.

  古市∶也是从那个时候起出现了算法[42] 这个说法的吧?

  FURUICHI: Was it the time when the term “algorithm 42” appeared?

  伊东∶嗯。那是再稍后一些的事情。

  ITO: Well, that was later.

  古市∶蛇型艺廊[43] 是2002 年完成的吧?

  FURUICHI: Then you designed the Serpentine Gallery43 in 2002, right?

  伊东∶是的。那是与结构工程师塞西尔·巴尔蒙德[44] 一起设计的。他总是说到算法的事。

  ITO: Yes. I co-designed it with structure specialist Cecil Balmond44. He mentioned “algorithm” a lot.

  古市∶TOD‘S 表参道大楼也是这种作法吗?

  FURUICHI: Did you design the TOD’S Omotesando Building in a similar way, of an algorithm?

  PS:33.筱原一男(1925-2006),生于日本静冈县,日本著名的建筑实践家和建筑教育家。曾任教于东京工业大学,日本一批最有影响力的建筑师,如伊东丰雄、长谷川逸子,都曾师从筱原一男。

  Kazuo Shinohara (1925-2006) was a highly influential Japanese architect and educator. He taught in Tokyo Institute of Technology and some of the most influential architects such as Toyo Ito and Hasegawa Itsuko.

  34.多木浩二(1928-2011),日本思想家、艺术评论家、摄影评论家。

  Koji Taki (1928-2011) was a Japanese art critic who conducted research on Japanese modern architects and architecture.

  35.Art-Polis,全称熊本Artpolis。以利用建筑和城市规划来实现文化的提高为理念的、在日本熊本县所开展的城市开发事业。项目开始于1988 年,当时的县知事细川护熙,基于对当时高度经济增长下日本城市的划一形象的反省,立意创造熊本特有的田园文化圈。最主要特征是项目设计师的选定不采用一般的投标形式,而全权委托评审委员会选定,至今已实现了数十个城市开发项目。现任第三届评审委员长为建筑家伊东丰雄。

  Art-Polis, namely the Kumamoto Artpolis Program, is an urban development program in Kumamoto Prefecture, established on the idea of realizing cultural improvement through architecture and urban planning. The program was launched by the then governor, Morihiro Hosokawa, based on the reflection on the indistinguishable urban images of Japanese cities during the period of rapid economic growth, with an aim to create a unique garden city culture of Kumamoto. The most distinct characteristic of this program is to use ajudging committee to choose the designers of the projects, instead of using the conventional bidding format. About a dozen urban development projects have already been builtunder this program to date. The current and the president of the third judging committee is Toyo Ito.

  36.细川护熙(1938-),生于东京都千代田区。1993 年至1994 年就任日本第79 任日本首相。

  Morihiro Hosokawa, born in 1938, is a Japanese politician who was the 79th Prime Minister of Japan from 9 August 1993 to 28 April 1994.

  37.汉斯·霍来因(1934-),奥地利建筑师、设计师。毕业于维也纳艺术学院,1959 年和1960 年先后求学于芝加哥伊利诺理工学院、加利福尼亚大学伯克利分校。曾任教于维也纳的应用美术学院,并为康涅狄格州纽黑文的耶鲁大学的客座教授,并于1985 年荣获普立兹克建筑奖。

  Hans Hollein, born in 1934, is an Austrian architect and designer and the awardee of the Pritzker Prize in 1985. Hollein was born in Vienna, and received a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts Vienna in 1956. He attended the Illinois Institute of Technology in 1959 and the University of California in 1960. Hollein used to teach at a few universities in the U.S. and Germany. Since 1976 he has been a professor at the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna.

  38.毛纲毅旷(1914-2001),日本建筑师。以将“风水”引入建筑设计著称。

  Kikou Modzuna (1941-2001) was a Japanese architect, most known for taking Fengshui into consideration in his design.

  39.渡边丰和(1938-),日本建筑师、京都造型艺术大学名誉教授、日本后现代主义代表建筑师之一。1961 年毕业于福井大学工学部建筑系、之后在东京大学取得工学博士学位。设计上注重曲线曲面的表现。代表作包括龙神村民体育馆 (1987)、秋田市体育馆(1994)、对马丰玉町文化馆(1990) 等。著作有《现代建筑样式论》(1971) 、《天之建筑、地之住宅》(1987)等多数。

  Toyokazu Watanabe, born in 1938, is a Japanese architect and professor at the Kyoto University of Art and Design. He is one of the representatives of the post-modernism architects in Japan. He graduated from the Department of Architect at the University of Fukui in 1961 and obtained his doctor‘s degree from the University of Tokyo later on. His design is especially focused on using curved surfaces. Noted works of his include the Gymnasium of Ryujin Village (1987), Gymnasium of Akita City (1994), and the Cultural Hall of Toyotama Town in Tsushima, etc. He also authored a number of books, including Thesis on Style of Modern Architecture (1971) and Heavenly Architecture and Earthly Residence(1987), etc.

  40.谷口吉生(1937-),日本建筑师。东京艺术大学客座教授,以博物馆类建筑著称。曾获日本建筑学会最佳作品奖、吉田五十八奖、高松宫殿下纪念世界文化奖等。

  Yoshio Taniguchi, born in 1937, is a Japanese architect and guest professor at the Tokyo University of the Arts, specialized in designing museums. He has won many prizes including the Annual Prize from AIJ, the Prize of Yoshida Isoya and the Praemium Imperiale。

  41.佐佐木睦朗(1946-),日本建筑构造家,法政大学工学部建筑学教授。曾就职于木村俊彦结构设计事务所。

  Sasaki Mutsuro, born in 1946, is an architect who teaches at the Hosei University, specialized in architectural structure. He once worked at Toshiko Kimura Structural Engineers.

  42.算法,为一个计算的具体步骤,常用于数学和计算机科学中计算、数据处理和自动推理。

  An algorithm is a step-by-step procedure for calculations, widely used for calculation, data processing, and automated reasoning in mathematics and computer science.

  43.蛇型艺廊,伦敦的海德公园肯辛顿花园中的夏季敞篷展廊,每年委托不同的世界知名建筑师进行设计。

  The Serpentine Galleries are two contemporary art galleries in Kensington Gardens, Hyde Park, central London, which are designed annually by noted architects.

  44.塞西尔·巴尔蒙德(1943-),世界知名结构工程师。专注于创新结构建筑设计方向。现任奥雅纳工程公司副总裁。

  Cecil Balmond, born in 1943, is a noted structural engineer who focuses on innovative structural design. In 1968 Balmond joined Ove Arup & Partners, leading him to become deputy chairman.

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