中国与法国的双重思维-- 齐欣访谈

  • 来源:建筑创作
  • 关键字:齐欣,建筑创作
  • 发布时间:2014-07-18 12:55

  齐欣建筑设计咨询有限公司办公室

  2014-06-04

  AC:作为中国第一批留法的年轻学生之一,您回国已经接近二十年,刚从法国回来时是什么状态?现在再回看当初,法国的经历有对您又有怎样的影响?

  齐欣:其实我离开法国后并没有直接回北京,而是在香港工作了近三年。回来时,英国人的工作方式已多少淡化了法国对我的影响。平时我更多的只是作为一个“人” 和“建筑师”活着,不太注意这活法与哪个国家或文化有关。回国前,我曾担心在国内呆久了,会把法国的经历当成一场梦,怀疑它的真实性。但由于家庭的关系(我的法国妻子 Marie-Jo),法国一直在我的生活中延续。我分不太清自己的思想中什么是法国的,什么是中国的。对于我来说,这长达十年的留法经历已经内化了。最重要的是我的民族观念在淡化,世界观念在增强。

  中国人当然喜欢说中华民族好;汉学家认为中国人的特点之一就是把自己当做世界的中心,所以起名叫中国。其实历史上所有人都觉得自己地处世界中心,都觉得自己的文明最好。如果没有这种骄傲感,民族便无以存在和延续。而世界的眼光,就是要从局部的圈子里跳出来,发现每个民族都有他的优势和劣势。中国社会有一种纯净化的倾向。比如教育,从小开始,就一直在灌输明确而唯一的价值观。什么是对的,什么是错的,一目了然。而有了这种权威的判断,人们很容易就放弃独立的思考,致使社会缺乏不同的声音。在这方面,中国可能造就了东方文化的极端。

  在某些层面上,法国可能造就了西方文化的极端。法国的吉祥物是只公鸡,这与法国人的性格很符合。公鸡长着一身漂亮的羽毛,高傲而好斗。法国人特别喜欢唱反调,喜欢抱怨,喜欢用对立、斗争的方式面对问题。而中国则倡导中庸,倡导与人为善。

  不过,法国人斗争的目的是为了让自己过上美好的生活,这件事他们想得很明白。而中国人容易干着干着工作就忘了生活,地位和金钱成了人生的终极目标。法国人的批判性思维和生活态度对我的影响不小。但我毕竟是中国人,所以中法两种思维方式同时存在,挥之不去地带着两种思维混日子。(笑)

  AC:您回国后好像曾有过一段挺艰难的日子。一两年内投了十几个标,只中了一两个。在中国这种较为固化、厚重的文化中,改变是很艰难的。去年在我们的《建筑创作》杂志“华揽洪专辑”中您写过一篇评论,我们从中读出了很多沧桑。读万卷书行万里路之后,您肯定不可能再以原有的方式来面对中国的现实。是不是有时会感到自己处在两种文化的夹缝中?你怎么看待这种状态?

  齐欣:对于我来说,回国工作肯定比在国外容易得多。首先是语言交流没障碍,其次是有家人、朋友、老师、叔叔、阿姨,互相能有个照应。另外,我也没有改天换地的崇高志向,只想做些我会做的事。若让我用另一种方法去做设计,我还真不会了。

  刚回国那会儿,甲方也知道哪些是先进的,也想要。但等把方案摆在面前时,他们又有些惧怕。比如十七年前,在SOHO 现代城的投标中,甲方要求做现代的东西,我就在设计中引入了生态、绿色等概念,但最终他们的评价却是我不懂国情,非要给农民穿西装。经过在国内这十几年的从业,我想,社会在加强对我的认同感,我也在加强对社会的认同感。打个比方,刚回国时我特看不惯在中国大造欧式建筑,但现在就想开了。这也是一种民意,一种文化的流露,很具中国特色。作为建筑师,若始终坚持与民意对抗,那就是螳臂挡车,死路一条。与其抗拒这种真实的当下中国文化,不如去了解人们的情怀,换位思考。

  其结论也许就是:欧陆风就是新中式!(笑)所以我现在看问题越来越松弛了,不再那么较真了。接地气儿么,不要以为自己是上帝,有资格评判别人。

  AC:以您在法国十年的经历,法国什么东西值得享受?

  齐欣:久闻不觉其臭……(笑)。几年前,法国的一个文化参赞的女儿在上海实习了一个月,写出了三百页的报告,讲上海,讲中国。

  参赞说,呆一个月能写出三百页,但呆了十年后,肯定连三十行都写不出来了。在一个地方生活久了,对一切都习以为常了,麻木了,很难做出评价。法国人在我脑海中都是一个个活生生的具体的人,而不是什么“法国人”;法国各地的风景也大不相同,美食各有千秋。

  AC:你对现在要去法国交流的人有什么建议?

  齐欣:我记得当年关肇邺先生曾说过,去哪个学校、找哪个导师、学什么专业都不重要,重要的就是出去。说的有点极端,但道理是对的,就是去认识另一个世界,开阔视野。带着这段经历回来,会有活了两辈子的感觉。

  AC:网络时代,通过文字图片信息也能了解另一种文明,甚至会比亲身造访获得的信息更丰富。李敖曾经有过这样的说法,他没有离开过台湾,却可通过阅读大量的书籍资料熟知一种文化的历史演变与现状细节。对此您怎么看?

  齐欣:相比间接的知识,我更喜欢直接的感知。去一个新地方,我最不愿意造访博物馆,了解历史等。我属于基本动物,需要亲身感受。对我来说,任何信息都是片面的。从书本到书本,只能当“半个”别人。

  与片面的知识不同,文化是全方位的。刚到法国事务所工作时,他们的美味我不觉得好吃;他们的玩笑我不觉得好笑;我喜欢的设计他们不觉得好。到你可以和他们一起享受美食,对某个段子同声大笑,你做的东西他们也觉得好了,因为你已融入了当地的文化。这些是不能从图片或文字中获得的。文化渗透在衣食住行中,听新闻、吵架、喝咖啡,许多东西加在一起,才能滋养出文化。

  只有把自己置身于那种活生生的环境中,而不固步自封于自己的文化体系中,你才可能了解到他们设计的源头,才能取到真经。

  当然,出不出国也没那么重要。按法国人的想法,“怎么样舒服就怎么过”。我的人生其实更多是“被选择”的,而但当你有选择的时候,就会犹豫。想干什么就干什么吧。人生不长,干你想干的事儿,过你想过的日子,就得了。

  齐欣,1959 年出生于北京。1983 年于清华大学建筑学院毕业,1984 年赴法国留学。他在法国的若干建筑学院完成了深造,并在多家法国事务所获得了丰富的建筑师职业经验。1994 年离开法国后,先后在英国福斯特建筑设计事务所、清华大学建筑学院等单位任职,并于2002 年创办了齐欣建筑设计咨询有限公司,任董事长及总建筑师。期间,他创作了众多优秀的建筑设计作品,并且为中法两国建筑文化的交流做出了很多努力。2014 年6 月4 日,他接受了“建筑创作”杂志的采访,就中法文化交流提出了自己的观点。

  采访人:王舒展 沈思 / 文字整理:沈思 / 英文校对:钱单黛娜

  Living with a double minded culture Chinese and French-Interview with Qi XinQi Xin Architects and Engineers‘ Office

  04-06-2014

  AC: As one of the first Chinese students sent to further study in France, how was your return toChina after nearly twenty years. Looking back what impact did France make on you?

  Qi Xin: After leaving France, I did not return immediately to Beijing. I first worked three years in HongKong, and when I did, the English working habits had already influenced me. Generally I live as a man andan Architect, I have not paid any particular attention to the influence of any country in my everyday life.

  Before returning to China, I often asked myself, if the period I spent in France was just a dream, andwhether I would question it’s reality. Thanks to my family situation (my French wife Marie-Jo) Francewould continue to exist in my life. In my mind I do not distinguish the difference. For me 10 yearsin France has a already been integrated in my personality. The most important is that as my nationalidentity weakens, the international identity is reinforced.

  The Chinese people, love to speak well of the Chinese nation. Sinologists state in particular that Chinesepeople think they are the center of the world, which is why they call themselves “The Middle Kingdom.In history people think that they are the center of the world, and that their culture is always thebest. Without this pride people‘s particular culture could not exist or prolong itself. To have a globalviewpoint would mean extract one self from certain areas and discover others, as every culture hasadvantages and weaknesses.

  The Chinese society has a tendency to be purist. For example in education, ever since you are young,one teaches the child’s mind to have clear and unique values. Whether true or false, right or wrong, butwith this authoritative behavior, young people soon abandon their own personal ideas and therefore thesociety lacks different points of view. Here China is perhaps at the extreme of oriental culture.

  In certain points France is also at the extreme of occidental culture. The French national symbol, is aCoq, very proud, this resembles the French character. The Coq has beautiful feathers, but it is proudand quarrelsome. French people adore to contradict, to complain, they love to be confronted toproblems and express the opposite attitude. But in China we seek “the middle ground”, to be kind withothers, But, it is crystal clear in the French‘s mind that they fight for a better life; while the Chineseare easily to spare all their attention on work and leave little to life, setting status and money as theirultimate purposes of life. The critical thinking and life attitude of the French made a great impact onme. But since I am Chinese, I always muddle along with the both modes of thinking, neither can beovercome. (Smile)

  AC: After your returned to China, you had a difficult period. In a year or two you had repliedto a dozen biddings, but only got one or two. Transformation is extremely hard in China forthe intrinsic and massive culture. In our special Issue last year of Hua LanHong (Leon Hoa ) wenoticed you wrote an article with plenty of vicissitudes. After travelling and studying abroad it is sure that you have not the same attitudes towards the Chinese reality. Do you sometimes feelcaught in between the two cultures? What do you think of this state of mind?Qi Xin: For me, working in China is definitely easier than working abroad. First there is no barrier withthe language and then I have my family, friends, teachers, and other Contacts, we all help each othermutually. Besides, I do not have the ambition to radically change world, I only work in the fields of myown competence. If you oblige me to create in other ways I do not know how.On returning to China, my clients did know what the advanced are and they also want it. Howeverhaving submitted the drawing plans, they were often hesitant. For example 17 years ago for the SOHOMODERN CITY bid, I introduced concepts with notions of ecology and sustainable ideas, their reactionwas that I did not understand the Chinese Society and that I was clothing the peasants with suits. Nowafter more than ten years of experience they have accepted me and vice versa.

  At the beginning I did not like Occidental buildings in China, but now I have understood, that thisrepresents a public opinion, the present cultural expression and a very Chinese choice. As an architectif I always fight against the general opinions, the only thing, that will be left for me is to fail. Insteadof resisting against this very Chinese and actual trend, it is better to understand the people’s state ofmind and to help them think for themselves.The conclusion could be …the New Chinese trends couldit be Occidental? (laugh) It is for this reason that I am more and more tolerant on these topics, at leastless severe. One has to adapt to the environment in which we live, we are not the almighty God, and wedo not have the right to judge, other people‘s needs.

  AC: After 10 years experience living in France, what is the most memorable experiences.

  Qi Xin: In time, we get used to everything(laugh)! Some years ago the daughter of the French culturalcounselor did a working study of a month in Shanghai, she did a 300 pages report of her stay inShanghai and China. She was able to write 300 pages after a one month stay, but for the counselor, inquestion, at the end of ten years living in China, he could not even write 30 lines. The longer you stayin a country, the easier you integrate and take things there for granted. French people in my mind areall living and specific persons, I cannot generalize them as“ French”, each region in France has its ownlandscape, its own cuisine its own culture.

  AC: What advice do you give students who go to France for exchanges?

  Qi Xin: Professor Guan ZhaoYe (Architect at the University of Tsinghua) always said, “No matter whichschool you go to, which master teaches you, or what you major in, the importance is to go abroad!” Anextreme attitude but it has its logic. You have to discover other worlds and broaden your mind. Returnto China with these experiences, and thus seem to have lived a second life.AC: With the Internet, we can learn about other civilizations. Through the written and imagedata, sometimes can give even more precise information than being there in person. According toMr. LI AO (a writer, historian and poet in Taiwan); who never left Taiwan but learnt, with the helpof great quantities of books and resources, all about historical evolutions of different countriescultures and their present situation. what do you think?

  Qi Xin: I preferdirect perception rather than indirect information. When I go to a new place, the lastthing I want to visit are Museums to learn their history. I belong to those primary animals that rely ondirect experience. As far as I am concerned, no information is ever completed, to solely rely on bookswe can only acquire limited experiences.

  Knowledge is incomplete but culture is everywhere. At the beginning of my working experience inFrench offices, I did not appreciate their delicious foods, their jokes were not funny, the creations Ipresented them were not convincing. Until I was able to enjoy the same delicious food and laugh wildlyfor the same joke, and they got to appreciate my designs, only then, I have integrated in their culture.

  All this cannot be achieved with images and writings. Culture is transmitted in all aspects of life, clothes,nourishment, housing, transports, daily news, having conversations…arguing with people, drinkingcoffee, accumulating experiences, that is culture.Only when you live in the real environment in life, and are not imprisoned in one’s own culture, you canfinally understand the origin of inspiration and acquire real knowledge.Of course it is not crucial to go abroad. According to the French saying “you live as you please “. A goodpart of my life has been “pre-chosen” and when one has choice…one often hesitates. So follow yourheart, and choose to live, as you want to… life is so short, if you can accomplish that, it is enough!

  Qi Xin was born in Beijing in 1959, graduated from the School of Architecture, University of Tsinghua in1983, he then went to France for furtherstudies in 1984 . He studied in a number of French schools of Architecture and worked in many architectural firms in France, therefore accumulatinga rich professional experience. In 1994 he left France and successively worked in architectural offices such as Foster Partners Group and then theArchitectural Institute of the University of Tsinghua. In 2002 he established Qi Xin Architects and Engineers and is Chairman and Chief architect.

  Hehas designed many excellent architectural projects and made great cultural contributions between France and China. Following this introductionArchiCreation has gathered his viewpoints on the French China cultural exchanges.

  Interviewer: Wang Shuzhan, Shen Si / Editor: Shen Si / English corrector: Diana Chan Chieng

关注读览天下微信, 100万篇深度好文, 等你来看……