中法建筑交流的回忆--邹欢访谈

  • 来源:建筑创作
  • 关键字:中法建筑,邹欢
  • 发布时间:2014-07-18 12:56

  AC:今年是中法建交五十周年,我们《建筑创作》杂志也将在今年推出法国专辑,为读者介绍五位有创新精神的法国建筑师。

  邹欢:纪念中法建交五十年的系列活动很隆重,目前各种相关的展览和演出正在进行。在法国,建筑被认为是文化的重要组成部分。早在1995年,清华大学建筑学院建筑馆刚落成时,就做过一次“法国建筑展览”,那次展览也是单黛娜女士策划的,同样也选了老中青三代五位建筑师,是在中国的第一次法国当代建筑展览,五位建筑师举办了讲座,非常成功。

  AC:九十年代末中国有一大批年轻建筑师赴法国交流,你是最早的那一批。给我们讲讲那段经历吧。

  邹欢:1997年,时任法国总统希拉克访华,提出了建筑交流计划,具体项目是50个中国建筑师留学法国。从98年开始,50名中国建筑师分三批赴法国交流,有长期(一年)和短期(三个月)两种方式。我参加的是98年长期项目。三年之后,交流计划进一步扩大,最终共有150个中国建筑师参与了这个项目。这150人几乎都来自中国各大建筑设计院和高校建筑学院,大部分人在计划完成后都回国继续工作,给中国的建筑设计界带来了很大的影响。这种文化传播方式很有智慧和远见,不急功近利,而是通过教育的方式产生潜移默化的影响。2005年,整个交流项目在结束后在同济大学举办了一个总结性的论坛和展览。我印象很深的是1998年,保罗·安德鲁在国家大剧院设计竞赛中获胜,随后1999年珠海大学校园规划也是法国建筑师中标--好像从那个时间点开始,法国建筑师开始在中国产生影响。现在安德鲁在中国已经建成了多个歌剧院。

  法国在建筑文化传播方面的能力非常出色。

  AC:赴法的50名建筑师,培养方式是怎样的呢?

  邹欢:长期交流的时间为一年,需要先进行语言培训。先在首都师范大学培训法语,然后去法国的建筑学校进行一年的课程学习。在学习的同时还有很多去事务所实习的机会。短期交流为三个月,用英语交流,基本都是在知名事务所和法国国企性质的大设计院实习。

  AC:法国方面是如何组织和管理这一计划的呢?

  邹欢:法国方面负担了中国建筑师在法国学习和生活的全部费用,法国建筑学会成立了一个专门的机构来管理这个项目。从遴选建筑师到资格评估,再到赴法国后的各项事务性工作都由该机构来负责。建筑交流项目结束后还有一个城市规划师的交流计划,以短期培训为主。

  AC:那时候,中外交流还没有那么频繁。现在这样的机会已经很多了。

  邹欢:是的。今天我们很多交流机会也是在那个时候建立的联系,打下的基础,比如现在清华大学建筑学院和巴黎拉维莱特建筑学院已经建立了固定的交流机制,每年都有多种形式的学术交流。

  AC:当年这种机会还是非常珍贵的,15年前国内外环境差距很大,这样的交流计划肯定会带来很大的冲击。但是现在,中国的国际化交流已经非常频繁,互联网的出现也使世界变小了,国际资讯变得触手可及。在这种情况下,有不少人对中外交流会有质疑,一方面,中国建筑师和建筑学生对国际交流已经司空见惯,不再像十几年前那样感受到很大的影响;另一方面,外国的经验是否能嫁接在中国的现实中也是一个问题。您怎么看待这种情况?

  邹欢:从个人来讲,在法国的学习经历更多是思想层面上的影响,比如认识和处理问题的方法。过去交流的机会难得,人们就会很珍惜,强迫自己进入一种汲取的学习状态。现在机会来得太容易反而阻碍了深层次的交流。形式和心态上的不同可能导致理解的差异。外国的方法也许不能解决中国的问题,但是如果学习深度不够,只学到了表面方法,但却不理解深层的根源,可能也是“外国经验无用”的原因之一。

  AC:那么,法国一年对您的影响是怎样的呢?会不会在回国时有恍如隔世的感觉?

  邹欢:中国的变化非常快,在国外待的时间长了以后回国确实需要学习才能重新进入状态,不过一年的时间还好。在法国所见所学对我影响最大的是对城市和建筑关系的分析和认识,法国的城市分析方法让我看建筑和城市问题的视角产生了变化,找到更多的线索去分析和解决问题。在教学方面,法国老师对具体课题的选择也值得借鉴。

  AC:我们在编辑专辑的过程中,发现很难为法国现代建筑梳理出一条清晰的线索。

  邹欢:法国建筑的体系性不是很强,因为他们的文化很强调自由和个性。努维尔在法国受欣赏,不是因为其作品数量多或者规模大,而是他的设计思想独特有创造性。

  邹欢,清华大学建筑学院副教授。2006年在清华大学建筑学院获得博士学位,并留校任教。1998作为中法文化交流计划“150位中国建筑师在法国”的首批中国建筑师赴法国国立巴黎维尔曼建筑学院进修;2007年作为访问学者,在法国巴黎政治学院城市规划系进行学术研究交流。他于2007年编著出版了《法国城市规划四十年》,并发表《巴黎大区总体规划》、《巴黎玛海区城市遗产保护政策与措施》等多篇关于法国城市规划设计的论文。2014年6月5日,他接受了《建筑创作》杂志的专访,回忆了中法之间的文化交流。

  采访人:王舒展沈思/文字整理:沈思/法文校对:邹欢

  Memories of Sino-France Architecture Exchange Interview with Zou Huan

  School of Architecture, Tsinghua University

  05-06-2014

  AC: In the 50th anniversary of diplomatic relations between China and France, we AchiCreationwill launch a special issue on France, introducing five innovative French architects to readers.

  Zou Huan: The 50th anniversary of Sino-France diplomatic relations is celebrated with a series of grandactivities, among which some related exhibitions and performances are undergoing. In France, architectureis honored as an important part of culture. Early in 1995, an exhibition on French architecture was heldwhen the Building of the School of Architecture of Tsinghua University was just completed. It was alsoplanned by Diana Chan Chieng, as the first exhibition on modern French architecture in China. Totally fivearchitects of three generations were involved and all of them held a lecture respectively. That exhibitionwas very successful.

  AC: In the late 1990s, a large number of young Chinese architects went to France for exchange andyou were among them. Share with us some of your experience during that time.Zou Huan: In 1997, the French President at that time, Mr. Chirac visited China and brought up a planon architecture exchange, specifically, welcoming 50 Chinese architects to study in France. Since 1998,

  50 Chinese architects went to France in three batches and two modes: the long-term (one year) and theshort-term (3 months). I then joined in the long-term project in 1998. Three years later, attendants ofthe exchange plan further grew to 150 Chinese architects. Almost all those 150 attendants were fromthe best architecture design institutes and the schools of architectures of universities and most of themresumed their work in China after the program, making a great difference on the architecture design inChina. This way of culture spreading is of great wisdom and insight. Instead of seeking quick success andinstant benefits, it makes tacit influence through education. In 2005, a summing-up forum and exhibitionwas held in Tongji Univestiy when the whole exchange project came to an end. The one left me a deepimpression is that Paul Andreu stood out in the design competition of the National Grand Theatre in1998. Later on, another French architect won the bidding of campus planning of Zhuhai University in1999. It seems that since then French architects began to exert an influence on China. Now in Chinamany theatres are constructed based on the designs of Paul Andreu. France indeed has a remarkableability in spreading architectural culture.

  AC: How were those 50 architects in France trained?

  Zou Huan: The long-term exchange lasted one year and attendants then had to cultivate their languagefirst. We were firstly trained on French in Capital Normal University and then studied curriculums in aFrench architecture school. While studying, we also had many opportunities of internship in many firms.

  The short-term exchange lasted three months and attendants mostly practiced in some famous firms andFrench state-owned large design institutes with English as their exchange language.

  AC: How did France organize and manage this plan?

  Zou Huan: France bore all the studyingand living costs of Chinese architects in France and the Ministryof Culture of France also established an organization, “l‘Observatoire de l’Architecture de la Chine Zou Huan, obtained his PhD in 2006 at Tsinghua and became associate professor of the School of Architecture of Tsinghua University. In 1998, hewent to the School of Architecture Paris-Villemin for further study as one of the first “150 Chinese architects in France” in the Sino-France culturalexchange program. In 2007, he went to at Sciences Po Paris for academic research and exchange as a visiting scholar. In 2007, He has written andpublished a book 40-Year Urban Planning in France and several articles on the planning of French cities as The Master Plan for the Ile-de-France,Policies and means of protection of heritage in the Marais. He recalled the cultural exchange between China and France in the exclusive interview ofAC (ArchiCreation) on June 5, 2014.

  Contemporaine“, to specially take charge of the selection, evaluation and all the transactional works ofthose Chinese architects in France. The architectural exchange project was also closely followed by anexchange plan on urban planning, which was mainly for short-term training.

  AC: At that time, international exchanges between China and other countries were not frequent.

  But now, there are many of these opportunities.

  Zou Huan: Yes. Nowadays many exchange opportunities shall owe to the relationships and foundationsestablished at that time. For example, the School of Architecture of Tsinghua University and ENSAPLV(Ecole Nationale Supérieure d‘Archietcture de Paris La Villette) have established a fixed exchangemechanism and there will be various academic exchanges between them annually.

  AC: In the past, this kind of opportunity was quite rare, as 15 years ago there was a wide gapbetween the domestic and international environment. Such exchange plan would definitely bring ahuge impact. But now, international exchanges are frequent. Besides, internet also makes the worldsmaller and global information within touch. Under this circumstance, many people would doubton the effect of international exchanges. On the one hand, international exchange gets commonfor Chinese architects and architecture students and it can no long bring as great an influence as adozen years ago. On the other hand, it is still a problem worthy of considering whether the foreignexperience can be used into the reality of China. What’s your opinion on that?

  Zou Huan: For me, the studyingexperience in France made an great influence on my thinking, forexample, helping me to find new way to recognize and solve problems. Exchange opportunity was quiterare in the past, thus people cherished it much more and studied forcefully and arduously. Nowadays,as the opportunity increases, deep exchanges decrease conversely. Attendants in different modes andattitudes may understand things differently. The foreign method may not solve Chinese problems,but superficial study may be one of the reasons for that.

  AC: Well, what influence did that one-year study in France make on you? Did you feel it like anotherlife when just returned China?

  Zou Huan: Changes happen rapidly in China and it is indeed that I need to study to adapt myself to it afterspending a long time abroad. Anyway, one year is not too long a period. The way to analyze and recognizethe relationship between city and buildings is the one influenced me the most among all the things I‘veseen and learned in France. The French urban analysis method provides me another perspective onarchitecture and urban problems and I can find out more clues to analyze and solve these problems.

  In terms of teaching, the selection of specific curriculums of the French teachers is also worthy of learning.

  AC: While formulating the special issue on France, we felt quite difficult to clearly sort out a clue ofFrench modern architecture.

  Zou Huan: French architecture is not strongly systematic, as their culture stresses more on freedom andindividuality. For example, Jean Nouvel is appreciated in France for originality and innovation of hiscreation and not the quantity or size of his works.

  Interviewer: Wang Shuzhan, Shen Si / Editor: Shen Si / French corrector: Zou Huan

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